The Gaming Den

So after threatening to do some kind of review of RIFTS for a while I figured I should finally put finger to keyboard and get it done. But rather than do a blow-by-blow I figured that most people have probably encountered a Palladium game in some form or another by now, so I'll just run down the top 10 things that make RIFTS into a clusterfuck of fail. Some will be mechanical, some aesthetic, and they are in roughly ascending order of how much they make me want to drive to Kevin Siembieda's house and take a shit through his letterbox.

First, a little backstory. Palladium was started in 1981 by Kevin Siembieda with his first release "The Mechanoid Invasion". This was basically Kev attempting to sell his home campaign as a complete game, and as such the ruleset is basically a hack of AD&D. Palladium used pretty much the same rules in their subsequent releases Palladium Fantasy ('83), Heroes Unlimited ('84), TMNT ('85), Robotech ('86) and Beyond the Supernatural ('87). You might think that laziness and the ability to copy large sections of previous books for new releases are to blame for this re-use of the game system, and I'm pretty sure you'd be right on the money. However, back in the 80's it was fairly common for groups to simply take the system they knew best and use it for different styles of games. This tendency led to Universal rules systems such as GURPS in 1986, and the HERO system in 1989, and so it is perhaps understandable that Palladium would try something similar. The Palladium system, unlike these however, was never built to be a universal system. And boy does it show, seriously this motherfucker creaks like your grandmothers hip when your granddaddy gets his horn on.

So anyway, in 1990 Palladium decided to create a game that would tie all of these disparate games together, a cross-genre RPG that would take elements of all these other systems and create an ultimate game, a system where superpowered beings, mutant animals, wizards and giant robots could play together in perfect harmony. Well, that was the idea anyway. Join me on a magical mystery tour as we find out how this bold, experimental game system broke new boundaries for roleplaying games and created the one game to rule them all!

It didn't, it sucks.

For reference, I will be using the 1995 Collectors Edition of RIFTS, as that is the one I have to hand. I understand Palladium have released a new ULTIMATE EDITION (RAWR!), but if they are going to stubbornly refuse to update to a 2nd edition they can't complain if I treat old rulebooks as valid for criticism. Besides, the game had been out for 5 fucking years by that point, they should have had ample chance to change things that didn't work.

So, first up on my list of hatred, we have the stats!

#10 The Shitty Stats

As an AD&D ripoff, the Palladium system uses 8 stats that are rolled on 3D6. Although it gives them fancy names, these are basically the 6 D&D stats that we all know and love, along with 2 other stupid ones that are bolted on for no reason. The stats are Intelligence Quotient (Int), Mental Endurance (Wis), Mental Affinity (Cha), Physical Strength (Guess), Physical Prowess (Dex), Physical Endurance (Con), Physical Beauty (Why??) and Speed (How far you can move). So far, so D&D right? Well, while these might work in your standard fantasy game, most of them have no reason being in a game about gun-toting super mutants and giant robots. Lets run through them. I.Q. gives you a one time skill boost, but as we'll get to later skills are a pile of shit, so you won't be bothered with this stat. Mental Endurance gives you a bonus to saves against psychic attacks, which are pretty rare and not really worth worrying about. Physical Strength doesn't really matter because GIANT ROBOTS, DUH! Physical Endurance determines your hit points and saves against poison, which doesn't matter because GIANT ROBOTS, DUH! Speed, ditto, the game doesn't even use tactical positioning because guns. Physical beauty is the one that really grinds my gears. In a game in which one character can be a humanoid dog and another can be a baby dragon, how the fuck do you measure objective beauty? It just makes no goddamn sense given the gameworld, and its inclusion is a travesty against God and man. Hilariously, being a humanoid dog gives no penalty to this stat, so furries are apparently the norm in RIFTS. I guess a chick that looks like a doberman is seen as a hottie by the majority of the population. However, amongst all the shit is a nugget of gold! P.P. gives you a bonus to hit and to dodge. Given dodging is the main defensive ability, this means Bonanza! PP is basically the only stat you care about when making a RIFTS character unless you need one for a class, all the others can go fuck themselves.

The second thing about the stat system is that apparently when Kev was rolling characters in D&D, he really, really liked the part where you rolled a hundred nobodies that died at first level before you rolled all 17's and played a Paladin. In RIFTS, stats are rolled on 3D6 in order with no rerolls, and you only get bonuses for stats of 17 and higher. You read that right, stats of 16 or lower are all the same from a game mechanics point of view. Now, they have a weird rule where if you roll 16 or higher for a stat you get to roll another D6 and add it to the roll, but besides making 16's impossible, this just means that you either win super hard or lose super hard when rolling stats in RIFTS. There is around a 65% chance you won't have any stat bonuses at all after rolling your stats, yet there is also a small but still possible chance of getting all 24's and laughing in your friends faces as you ride roughshod over their characters at everything. This shit is unforgiveable, AD&D 2e had been out for years by '95, how the hell were they still advocating roll 3D6 in order?

Most good OCC's (Character classes) have stat minimum requirements, because rolling low stats and getting punished with shitty bonuses should also restrict your character options to ones with shitty powers! You want to play a Glitter Boy and didn't roll a PP of 10 or more? Well fuck you! Ah, the joy of 90's RPGs. You kids with your D20 system, you don't even know you're born... Now where was I, ah yes, stat minimums. There are various ways to mess with your stats in RIFTS, from skills that up your physical stats, to OCC's that provide benefits or pump stats to meet certain minimums, but really if you roll low you suck and should feel ashamed. Because you generate your stats before you choose an OCC, and the bonuses come after you've chosen your OCC, there is no way to boost your stats to play the class you want until after you've already chosen your class! And there's no multiclassing or changing class outside of very specific circumstances, so you will never get the chance to play the class you want unless you suicide and roll up another character. So this game specifically rewards repeatedly getting yourself killed in order to create a super character. OMGWTFBBQ indeed.

There are numerous other crimes against humanity in this section, such as nonsensical or pointless stat bonuses that don't interact with the rules at all (bonus to charm/impress? What?), but I think I've made my point. To sum up, the RIFTS stat system is what you would get if you translated cancer of the scrotum into the written word. I'm pretty sure reading it has now given me cancer, which I am passing on to you so you can share my misery. Merry Christmas.

Next up, we look at how Levels are Meaningless in a levelled system! I can't wait!

I'm pretty sure that there are only 2 things to really hate about RIFTS

1. Siembada's zealous crusade against derivative fanworks. If you try to sort the good parts out from the rest, you can get yourself a shiny new C&D order just for posting your ideas to an online forum. He is within his legal rights - but that just shows what's wrong with copyright law and what's wrong with Kevin. (See also Siembada vs that Guy What Stole his Star Wars Toys)

2. The complete and utter lack of sense.

Technically number 1 is a reason to hate Kevin Siembieda rather than RIFTS. Not that he isn't a valid target for your hate of course .

Regarding number 2, if we were willing to let game systems off for a complete and utter lack of sense, we wouldn't have all the 4e threads. Oh Snap! Besides, RIFTS isn't all bad. It just has a large number of terrible design decisions stemming from the game system having been designed in the 80's for fantasy gaming and never having been properly updated.

There was actually a multiclassing option. But it was a single page or so, somewhere, and doesn't actually explain how most of it works. But it did actually exist on paper.


And the stats are slightly more complicated, because sometimes they do matter. Especially if you forgo the power armor route and go the supernatural strength route (and there are reasons to do this, because sometimes RIFTs GM's want to get you with the 'can't be in armor all the time' card. Or maybe you actually want to use magic or psionics, which actually do care about class levels. Sometimes), and start grabbing bonuses from various physical skills and the crazy shit in Atlantis.
ME also affects horror factor, among other things, which often means not being useless, and IQ is about the only way you'll even have a 50/50 shot of using some skills.



But most the 10 things to hate about rifts all start with Kevin Siembieda. Because he's a fucking hack, and an asshole.

Note that, depending on how much your GM likes Heroes Unlimited and TMNT, rolling a 6 on your bonus die for a 16+ may or may not grant you another die, which may or may not also explode for a maximum of 36 before modifiers from skills.

Also note that two of those stats give you a percentage chance to do something (which is promptly ignored in most groups), five of them grant numeric bonuses, and Speed... doesn't actually do anything. It's just how fast you can run, in a world where everyone has a hovercycle or giant robot. You can't even get a Dodge or Initiative bonus or something. This is the stat they love to give huge bonuses to, because they know nobody cares (seriously, Running skill gives +1 PE, +4d4 Speed).

If you're an MDC creature innately, your MDC is generally some multiple of PE, plus some multiple based on dice, so having a good PE is a decent option then. Likewise if you have Supernatural Strength, it's in your best interest to pick up a Martial Art to get various attacks that list th damage they deal, then pump your PS up with skills and mutations so that yours will be the kick that pierces the heavens.

And Ultimate Edition totally fixed the stupidity regarding the rolled attributes. Just kidding, all it did was the following:
1. A 16 now grants a very small bonus
2. If stats are below 9, they give penalties, but let you add something like 1d4 to one or two other stats to make up for it.
3. If stats are below 6 or something, the penalties are huge, but you get an even bigger optional boost to another stat to make up for it.
4. If your Intelligence is low, you're an idiot savant, so you take penalties to all skills except one or two, which gain a bonus.

So in Ultimate edition, you'd obviously want to have a speed of 6 or less, and then just fix it with running. Or, you know, use tech or magic to never care.

Exactly, you hope to get a few stats that are high enough to activate the bonus reel, and an abysmal speed because A) MOAR BONUSES and B) you'll never notice it.

Actually, a bad Speed might give penalties (because fuck you), but seriously, take the Running skill and it's fixed. Or take any of the OCCs that add +$TEXAS to your Speed.

And that's a bit easier to do these days, because nobody actually uses Kev's outdated rules as written. Even when they use the basic system as-is (only houseruling in cases of "There are three different citations for what the minimum roll to hit is" or "how many attacks do I have at level one? Again, three citations"), they let you roll 4drop1 and you can arrange the results as you please. Some actually let you roll 32d6, remove 8 of those, then arrange individual dice as you please, and you know what that results in. For the record, seeing as Rifts is bullshit, that's my favourite one.

One MC even decided to include other races on the fun, by saying "if your rolled result is at least 85% of the maximum you can roll, you get a bonus die. Maximum bonus dice = starting dice pool. So for 3d6 it's 16+ maximum +3d6. If your stat is 2d4 then you'd trigger it on a 7+ for a maximum of 4d4. If you're rolling 6d6, and you need a 31+ but have a maximum possible 12d6."

But yeah, basically the minimum is "Like people do with D&D".

Voss wrote:ME also affects horror factor, among other things, which often means not being useless, and IQ is about the only way you'll even have a 50/50 shot of using some skills.

In the edition I have ME only gives a bonus to "saves vs. psionics/insanity", no mention of Horror Factor (I checked!). Plus a 24 in Int (The absolute maximum with a 0.077% chance of rolling) gives you a 10% boost to skills. That's equivalent to a +2 on a D20. Big whoop.

Koumei wrote:If you're an MDC creature innately, your MDC is generally some multiple of PE, plus some multiple based on dice, so having a good PE is a decent option then. Likewise if you have Supernatural Strength, it's in your best interest to pick up a Martial Art to get various attacks that list th damage they deal, then pump your PS up with skills and mutations so that yours will be the kick that pierces the heavens.

Maybe some of the sourcebooks had races with PE based MDC, but in the base book there was only the Dragon Hatchling, with a set 1D4x100 MDC. Leafing through some other books, the Rahu Men get 6D6x10, while Wormwood Holy Terrors get 2D4x100+200. Seems pretty rare to get PE based MDC. Strength on the other hand can be worth it if you are one of the few OCCs/RCCs that get Supernatural - otherwise it is totally pointless.

So onto the next Thing I Hate About Rifts:

#9 Levels are Meaningless

As an AD&D clone using classes, RIFTS also uses xp and levels to denote character advancement. In fact it has customised xp charts for every OCC and RCC! It's almost like they tried to balance things a little here, in their own retarded way. It's just that a Glitter Boy (Killer robot pilot with the best mech in the game given for free) needing 2,100 xp to gain a level whilst a Vagabond (Commoner Equivalent) needs 1,875 is not in any way going to balance out the massive advantages the former has. I like to think this shows that they were at least a little aware of the abomination they had created, though. As dated and clunky as xp charts are nowadays, it is particularly hilarious that they printed some classes and forgot to include the xp charts, like the Warlock in the Conversion Book. I guess those classes just never got to advance.

Particular attention should be paid to the way that Kev completely fucks up even the simple act of copying ideas from better game systems. If you are going for xp in a levelled system, you need some way to stop players from grinding monsters way below their level for profit. There are generally two ways you can go about that. Either you have an exponentially increasing amount fo xp needed to level and have higher level monsters provide greatly increased xp (The AD&D method), OR you have the amount of xp a monster provides dependent on a comparison with the parties level, and have the xp requirement to level up stay pretty much the same (the 3e method). What you DON'T do is have the amount of xp needed to level double each time, and then provide a chart giving out set xp based on the level of challenge to the party! This is fucking insanity, according to the chart defeating a 'Major Menace' to the party is worth 75-100 xp at any level, but to get to from level 1 to 2 takes 2,000xp whereas level 9 to 10 is around 30,000xp!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS NONSENSE? A party has to defeat 300 Major Menaces to level up at level 9?!? ARRGH! This is proof positive that either: A) Noone plays Palladium games as written, or B) Noone has ever played a Palladium game past level 3.

Kev has a rant here about how he has examined every possible system and found xp and levels to be the perfect fit for every game (including a pointed jab at HERO system left in because this section was copypasta from Heroes Unlimited), but really we know he was just too lazy to come up with anything better. How do we know this? Because levels in RIFTS don't mean anything. Seriously, if I tell you I am a level 1 Glitter Boy or a level 5 Glitter Boy, that tells you almost nothing about my relative power. Let's look at what a character gets for going up a level, shall we?

[*] 1D6 Hit points. Really? In a world where laser pistols do 1D6x100 damage, you gain 1D6 Hit Points for going up a level.
[*] +3-5% to each of your skills. This is equivalent to around +1 on a D20. Woah, I think I'm about to jizz in my pants with excitement here!
[*] Bonuses from combat training. These range from +1 attack (Good!) to a kick attack for 1D6 damage (Not good!). On average over 5 levels you'll gain one attack, +2 or 3 to Strike, Parry or Dodge, and some shitty bonus like Critical Strike or Jump Kick.
[*] Bonuses from OCC/RCC. Mostly these are shitty additional skills at odd levels. Magic classes get additional PPE, which is nice, but as the spells you can learn aren't restricted by your level this isn't even that important for them. Psychic classes sometimes get new powers at higher levels, although even then the Burster gets nothing. Magic and Psionic powers are sometimes powered based on your level, but as often as not you can be as effective at first level as 10th with a little creativity.

And that's pretty much it! RIFTS characters have more dead levels than a PHB Fighter, and that's saying something. Despite levelling happening once in a blue moon and being intentionally rare and noteworthy, actually gaining a level is likely to get you something between Fuck and All. Rolling well on your PP will get you better combat bonuses and rolling well on your starting PPE will get you more magical bang than going up 5 levels in any class. I half think this is why multiclassing is so discouraged in RIFTS - the classes are all so front loaded that being able to trade out the next level of pretty much any class for the first level of another would be broken beyond belief.

The key problem is that in RIFTS the gear you obtain adventuring is likely to have a far greater effect on your abilities than the xp you gain - which is understandable. To my mind the whole concept of levels and classes really suits a fantasy game better than a modern one, because in the modern world technology is such that gear really overrides personal skill to a large degree. The most skilled swordsman in the world is no good against someone with a gun, and the best sniper in the world is powerless against a tank. Whereas in a fantasy game you can level up until you can beat any challenge the world can throw at you, in a game with modern sensibilities the capabilities of any one man has a hard limit. This makes a mockery of the basic intentions of a levelled system - that you can judge the power level of someone by their level. Once that has gone out of the window including levels at all becomes a lost cause and you really need to look at why you are including it. Something that old Kev obviously never took the time to do.

Join me next time when I go over how RIFTS Promotes Fishmalks!

Red_Rob wrote:This is proof positive that either: A) Noone plays Palladium games as written, or B) Noone has ever played a Palladium game past level 3.

No kidding. I've played in a bunch of Rifts games. Only one of them saw any levelling at all (we've gone from level 1 to, on average, level 4). This is because of 2 things:
1) The DM wouldn't wipe his ass with the XP rules as written and flat-out gives more (on a roughly D&D level)
2) He liked Dirge of Cerberus, so after battle we can decide out of character that we actually learned more but didn't do our accounting so we didn't get as much cash as we thought. Basically you can buy up to (XP total needed for next level, divided by five) XP, for 100cr each. Because we're literally millionaires, we do that.

Kev has a rant here about how he has examined every possible system and found xp and levels to be the perfect fit for every game (including a pointed jab at HERO system left in because this section was copypasta from Heroes Unlimited), but really we know he was just too lazy to come up with anything better.

I'm pretty sure that all of his experience covers:
A) XP and levels
B) Not advancing

The rant that he gives suggests this, because "Why use levels?" is not answered by "It's a more streamlined, elegant system than giving individual +1s here and there in the form of dots to colour in" or "it enforces equal gain, where your combat abilities and hit points and skills all advance so you can't just focus on your favourite number". It's answered by "Because people learn from stuff that happens!"

Now sure, were I making Rifts I'd totally stick with the levels, rather than the White Wolf method or whatever. I'd just use one XP table and make "gaining levels" more relevant. Then divide things into categories so you can have a level 1 dragon, but that's in the "I have my own MDC bitches!" category so does not appear in the same game as the level * hobo.

Let's look at what a character gets for going up a level, shall we?

Don't forget Weapon Proficiencies, that could give you... sometimes +1 on attacks with that weapon. Like, +1 per 4-5 levels. That makes you engorge with excitement, doesn't it?

I half think this is why multiclassing is so discouraged in RIFTS - the classes are all so front loaded that being able to trade out the next level of pretty much any class for the first level of another would be broken beyond belief.

More or less. Indeed, the only thing keeping me from multiclassing my Tattoo'd Warrior into, say, Special Forces Mercenary, is the fact that it's really handy to get the +x/level improvements to the duration of tattoo powers (15min/level makes it very relevant for ongoing combat missions). And the fact that skills freeze, so even if I took a new specialist martial art it'd be forever before my attacks/round increased. (Getting Scimitar Criticals and 19-20 Instant KO is cute too) For characters who don't have magic that lets their attacks hit like atom bombs, it's a done deal.

Damn it, I was going to make this thread.

As an AD&D ripoff, the Palladium system uses 8 stats that are rolled on 3D6. Although it gives them fancy names, these are basically the 6 D&D stats that we all know and love, along with 2 other stupid ones that are bolted on for no reason. The stats are Intelligence Quotient (Int), Mental Endurance (Wis), Mental Affinity (Cha), Physical Strength (Guess), Physical Prowess (Dex), Physical Endurance (Con), Physical Beauty (Why??) and Speed (How far you can move). So far, so D&D right? Well, while these might work in your standard fantasy game, most of them have no reason being in a game about gun-toting super mutants and giant robots. Lets run through them. I.Q. gives you a one time skill boost, but as we'll get to later skills are a pile of shit, so you won't be bothered with this stat. Mental Endurance gives you a bonus to saves against psychic attacks, which are pretty rare and not really worth worrying about. Physical Strength doesn't really matter because GIANT ROBOTS, DUH! Physical Endurance determines your hit points and saves against poison, which doesn't matter because GIANT ROBOTS, DUH! Speed, ditto, the game doesn't even use tactical positioning because guns. Physical beauty is the one that really grinds my gears. In a game in which one character can be a humanoid dog and another can be a baby dragon, how the fuck do you measure objective beauty? It just makes no goddamn sense given the gameworld, and its inclusion is a travesty against God and man. Hilariously, being a humanoid dog gives no penalty to this stat, so furries are apparently the norm in RIFTS. I guess a chick that looks like a doberman is seen as a hottie by the majority of the population. However, amongst all the shit is a nugget of gold! P.P. gives you a bonus to hit and to dodge. Given dodging is the main defensive ability, this means Bonanza! PP is basically the only stat you care about when making a RIFTS character unless you need one for a class, all the others can go fuck themselves.

The second thing about the stat system is that apparently when Kev was rolling characters in D&D, he really, really liked the part where you rolled a hundred nobodies that died at first level before you rolled all 17's and played a Paladin. In RIFTS, stats are rolled on 3D6 in order with no rerolls, and you only get bonuses for stats of 17 and higher. You read that right, stats of 16 or lower are all the same from a game mechanics point of view. Now, they have a weird rule where if you roll 16 or higher for a stat you get to roll another D6 and add it to the roll, but besides making 16's impossible, this just means that you either win super hard or lose super hard when rolling stats in RIFTS. There is around a 65% chance you won't have any stat bonuses at all after rolling your stats, yet there is also a small but still possible chance of getting all 24's and laughing in your friends faces as you ride roughshod over their characters at everything. This shit is unforgiveable, AD&D 2e had been out for years by '95, how the hell were they still advocating roll 3D6 in order?

Most good OCC's (Character classes) have stat minimum requirements, because rolling low stats and getting punished with shitty bonuses should also restrict your character options to ones with shitty powers! You want to play a Glitter Boy and didn't roll a PP of 10 or more? Well fuck you! Ah, the joy of 90's RPGs. You kids with your D20 system, you don't even know you're born... Now where was I, ah yes, stat minimums. There are various ways to mess with your stats in RIFTS, from skills that up your physical stats, to OCC's that provide benefits or pump stats to meet certain minimums, but really if you roll low you suck and should feel ashamed. Because you generate your stats before you choose an OCC, and the bonuses come after you've chosen your OCC, there is no way to boost your stats to play the class you want until after you've already chosen your class! And there's no multiclassing or changing class outside of very specific circumstances, so you will never get the chance to play the class you want unless you suicide and roll up another character. So this game specifically rewards repeatedly getting yourself killed in order to create a super character. OMGWTFBBQ indeed.

All of this is actually meaningless if you just roll up a non-human PC, pick any RCC that can take OCCs (oh GOD don't get me started on THAT CLUSTERFUCK) and has good attribute bonuses. Having to roll in order with no swapping and NO PLAYER CHOICE (a major recurring theme in Rifts character creation) doesn't sting that much when instead of rolling straight 3D6 for everything, you get 4D6+2 or whatever to the stats that really matter. Of course, actually FINDING the books that contain non-human RCCs that can take OCCs is more of a hastle than it should be, but that's a separate issue.

I didn't read all that carefully...did you even mention that attributes from 8 to 15 are functionally identical to each other? Because that is FAR AND AWAY my least favorite thing about the attribute system.

I am also surprised you didn't mention how MIND-BOGGLINGLY inconsistent the game is with whether or not the PP bonus to strike applies to various types of melee and ranged attacks.

here are numerous other crimes against humanity in this section, such as nonsensical or pointless stat bonuses that don't interact with the rules at all (bonus to charm/impress? What?)

I hate to "defend" RIFTS, but the attribute bonus from high MA or high PB (Trust/Intimidate or Charm/Impress) isn't a BONUS to do those things. It is a flat out percentage chance you can invoke at will that the characters you're interacting with will trust you/be intimidated by you (high MA) or be charmed or impressed by you (high PB). Since RIFTS is a game that has LITERALLY NO SOCIAL SKILLS EXCEPT SEDUCTION (what?), having blisteringly high MA or high PB can BREAK THE GAME IN HALF at higher levels, where you can easily roll up a Royal Frilled Dragon Hatchling with an 85% chance of everyone they meet desperately wanting to fuck them. So like...if SOCIAL INTERACTION is even a thing that happens in your game at all...MA or PB, if they get high enough, can go from being completely worthless to game breakingly awesome.

The story of me and RIFTS...will follow this post, but it is not something I remember from the "good" old days. I started playing RIFTS less than two months ago.

Back in '00, I found a site that gave a rather in-depth series of rants concerning Rifts. He even has a page just covering inconsistencies. I'm surprised the site still exists. It hasn't updated since 2005, but I don't think Kevin's done much of jack since then anyway. I don't know, I stopped caring to look a decade ago, and that site was a key feature in reaching that state.

Particular attention should be paid to the way that Kev completely fucks up even the simple act of copying ideas from better game systems. If you are going for xp in a levelled system, you need some way to stop players from grinding monsters way below their level for profit. There are generally two ways you can go about that. Either you have an exponentially increasing amount fo xp needed to level and have higher level monsters provide greatly increased xp (The AD&D method), OR you have the amount of xp a monster provides dependent on a comparison with the parties level, and have the xp requirement to level up stay pretty much the same (the 3e method). What you DON'T do is have the amount of xp needed to level double each time, and then provide a chart giving out set xp based on the level of challenge to the party! This is fucking insanity, according to the chart defeating a 'Major Menace' to the party is worth 75-100 xp at any level, but to get to from level 1 to 2 takes 2,000xp whereas level 9 to 10 is around 30,000xp!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS NONSENSE? A party has to defeat 300 Major Menaces to level up at level 9?!? ARRGH! This is proof positive that either: A) Noone plays Palladium games as written, or B) Noone has ever played a Palladium game past level 3.

Actually, in RIFTS ULTIMATE EDITION, KS actually explains how he did this INTENTIONALLY. Because RIFTS ULTIMATE EDITION actually has a "DVD Style Commentary Track" where KS wanks to how awesome and great he is. Seriously. I shit you not. If you really want to get angry, I can quote the relevant sections.

1D6 Hit points. Really? In a world where laser pistols do 1D6x100 damage, you gain 1D6 Hit Points for going up a level.
+3-5% to each of your skills. This is equivalent to around +1 on a D20. Woah, I think I'm about to jizz in my pants with excitement here!
Bonuses from combat training. These range from +1 attack (Good!) to a kick attack for 1D6 damage (Not good!). On average over 5 levels you'll gain one attack, +2 or 3 to Strike, Parry or Dodge, and some shitty bonus like Critical Strike or Jump Kick.
Bonuses from OCC/RCC. Mostly these are shitty additional skills at odd levels. Magic classes get additional PPE, which is nice, but as the spells you can learn aren't restricted by your level this isn't even that important for them. Psychic classes sometimes get new powers at higher levels, although even then the Burster gets nothing. Magic and Psionic powers are sometimes powered based on your level, but as often as not you can be as effective at first level as 10th with a little creativity.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to defend RIFTS but again SOME of these things do KIND of matter. Your Level 5 Glitter Boy has the following things that matter over a level 1 Glitter Boy:

Because of the way "Rift's" "Skill" "System" is "Structured", whether or not Skills matter at all depends on the effort your GM goes to to make them matter. There are some skills I'm going to call out as something that any GM with his head not up his ass would make the players roll for at least occasionally, though. In the case of the glitter boy, these are:

Pilot Robots & Power Armor
Sensory Equipment
Weapon Systems

The former gets rolled when you do tricks and maneuvers in your powered armor, i.e. combat. Sensory Equipment...well you need to be able to track a target to shoot it, especially if it's invisible or outside of visual range, but within your massive radar range. Weapon Systems...again, I'm not really sure what this skill is supposed to DO. I guess it's up to the GM. Thanks RIFTs. Anyway, you get a +12% to actual piloting (eh) and a +20% to sensory equipment and weapon systems (not too bad).

More importantly, you get:

+1 Attack per Level at Level 3 from GB Combat Elite.
+1 Attack per Level at Level 4 from H2H: Basic.
+2 to Parry and Dodge. (H2H Basic)
+1 to Strike and Disarm. (H2H Basic)
The opportunity to take Boxing, Wrestling, etcetera if for some insane reason you didn't at character creation.

Now, obviously what matters most here are the extra attacks. A Level 5 glitter boy has 8-9 attacks to a Level 1 glitter boy's 6-7 attacks. That is enough to give the win to the more experienced pilot 90% of the time, all other things being equal. More attacks means more opportunities to dodge, hammer the opponent, and overall control the tempo of combat. In Shadowrun, a character with 4 IP will usually beat a character with 3 IP, and a character with SPD 8 will usually beat a character with SPD 4 in Hero System. You do get a bunch of crap that completely doesn't matter and who gives a shit from leveling up (+4D6 meaningless Hit Points? HURRAY! A kick attack that does 1D8 SDC? WOOT!) but you also get some things that matter, like more attacks, higher parry, dodge, and strike bonuses, etcetera.

With some other classes (specifically any "Men of Magic" OCC) the benefits of leveling is SUBSTANTIALLY more pronounced. Casters in Rifts benefit from leveling up just as much as casters in 3.5E D&D.

Which sucks for them, because in Rifts you're basically not allowed to level up after Level 5. XP to level increases exponentially, while XP gained is forcibly static. Thanks KS. You fucking retard.

I would say it's fair to describe the benefits of leveling up in RIFTS as "highly inconsistent and erratic based on your class and level". It's not fair to call it unilaterally worthless. A Level 1 Ley Line walker can Armor of Ithan for 10 MDC. A Level 10 Leyline Walker can Armor Bizarre for 150 MDC. That is a substantial difference.

virgil wrote:Back in '00, I found a site that gave a rather in-depth series of rants concerning Rifts. He even has a page just covering inconsistencies. I'm surprised the site still exists. It hasn't updated since 2005, but I don't think Kevin's done much of jack since then anyway. I don't know, I stopped caring to look a decade ago, and that site was a key feature in reaching that state.

I've read that site. The essay by Bill Coffin about how KS is literally fucking insane is especially hilarious.

Join me next time when I go over how RIFTS Promotes Fishmalks!

Ah yes...Crazies...when I first read the class description a couple months ago I thought...wait a minute...he is LITERALLY telling people to play this class as fishmalks. Hardcore.

Ah, Rifts and crazies....we would use archaic 9 mm pistols as signaling devices; meaning, shooting each other in the head to attract attention. Even my non-MDC Crazy.

That sounds about right. Kudos on creating a setting where that is good roleplaying, KS. You bastard.

Scwarzkopf wrote: I hate to "defend" RIFTS, but the attribute bonus from high MA or high PB (Trust/Intimidate or Charm/Impress) isn't a BONUS to do those things.

Scwarzkopf wrote: I am also surprised you didn't mention how MIND-BOGGLINGLY inconsistent the game is with whether or not the PP bonus to strike applies to various types of melee and ranged attacks.

One of the reasons I made sure to state what book I was using in the first post was that RIFTS is staggeringly inconsistent in the details of the rules between books, and sometimes between sections in the same book! The edition I have states the PB and MA provide a "bonus to charm/impress" and a "bonus to invoke trust or intimidation". Bonus to what? How does this work? Unless you can read Kevin Siembieda's mind I don't think you will ever know. Just another one of the half baked, badly explained subsystems to go on the pile. Similarly, the PP bonus is listed as a "bonus to dodge, parry and strike", whilst the Modern Combat section states that ranged weapons "roll to strike". It is pretty clear cut that this applies, however in their Official FAQ they state that PP bonuses don't count to ranged attacks. We never played it that way, but I am convinced that no two groups play the same RIFTS anyhow.

Scwarzkopf wrote:Now, obviously what matters most here are the extra attacks. A Level 5 glitter boy has 8-9 attacks to a Level 1 glitter boy's 6-7 attacks. That is enough to give the win to the more experienced pilot 90% of the time, all other things being equal. More attacks means more opportunities to dodge, hammer the opponent, and overall control the tempo of combat.

Hahahahaha. No.
Dodging in RIFTS takes away your next action. This means that your opponent shoots at you, you have a chance of avoiding the damage, and in return for this chance, your opponent gets the next action and shoots at you again. See the problem? And that was before they introduced the -10 Dodge against ranged weapons rule. So now, for each attack you roll a D20 + bonuses and need a 5 or better to hit your opponent, and he basically can't dodge. Combat is just a case of wearing down the opponents MDC.
As a Glitter boy has 770 MDC and the gun does 3D6x10 damage, on average 7 shots should take one down. Because you alternate taking actions, winning initiative is much more important than the bonuses you get for going up levels.

Scwarzkopf wrote:With some other classes (specifically any "Men of Magic" OCC) the benefits of leveling is SUBSTANTIALLY more pronounced. Casters in Rifts benefit from leveling up just as much as casters in 3.5E D&D.

Hahahahaha. No.
RIFTS characters can learn spells of any level. That removes the number one benefit of going up levels in D&D, access to higher level spells. What's more, the other restriction of high level spells is PPE cost, which the book provides plenty of ways to gain access to. Willing donors can give you 70% of their PPE, so pay a bunch of nobodies a few credits and go wild! For 250 PPE a level 1 mage can use the level 12 spell "Summon and Control Entity" to summon anything and auto-control it with no save for 24 hours. Most of the spells only concession to levelling is the duration goes up. For some spells that can be important, but for most it is a minor thing at best. Wisps of Confusion affects up to 8 people and halves their attacks for 5 combat rounds per caster level. Thats around 30 attacks! No combat is going to last that long. Sickness reduces the target's actions per round to 1 for 12 hours per caster level. Whilst being a higher level does provide some benefits in RIFTS (more PPE is the main one), you can get around these much more easily than in D&D.

Scwarzkopf wrote:I would say it's fair to describe the benefits of leveling up in RIFTS as "highly inconsistent and erratic based on your class and level". It's not fair to call it unilaterally worthless.

Okay, levelling is not completely worthless in RIFTS. However starting skill selection, class choice and equipment is much, much more important. A level 5 City Rat will not beat a level 1 Cyber Knight at pretty much anything, and a level 1 Juicer will own them both. But now we are veering onto the rage inducing subject of balance in RIFTS...

Anyway, onto the next Thing I Hate:

#8 RIFTS promotes Fishmalks
We all know that insanity in an RPG is a subject that has to be handled carefully. Whilst you might think that this is because mental health is a sensitive subject for many people, and this is definitely something to bear in mind, the real reason is much more prosaic: it can be fucking annoying. We've all seen those players who insist on playing "wacky" characters that do "crazy" things, and I think we all agree that the less that is in the game, the better. You don't want to encourage this with special insane character classes or options, and you definitely don't want a big random insanity table that players have to roll on at the drop of a hat.

You can already tell, can't you?

Yes, RIFTS has both of these game design abominations and how! Just to emphasise how central it is to RIFTS that your character wets himself when he hears loud noises, the insanity section comes before you learn about skills, combat, or pretty much anything else. Kev really wanted you to know that you were going to be playing someone with a violent hatred of women, or who goes blind when in stressful situations, and he made sure this section was going to be one of the first things you read. It comes earlier than in the Call of Cthulhu rulebook! Damn! That is some dedication to fucking with the PC's.

And just in case you think you can avoid picking up insanities, the criteria for rolling on the table include "witnessing a shockingly grotesque atrocity" or "a terrible, frightening or unusual brush with death". Those two occurences make up the majority of events in a RIFTS scenario, so by the book most characters should have picked up an insanity or two by second level. Insanities can totally destroy a character, too. Not only were the examples in the previous paragraph straight from the book, you could get such gems as "Continually homicidal until killed or confined", a 25% chance of passing out when facing a supernatural entity (such as half the party), or an inability to speak. What's that you say? Magic spells involve saying a "Chant or Mantra" to cast? Well, fuck you if your spellcaster rolls this one!

"But so what" you say, "if the GM is lenient about forcing insanity rolls we can avoid this shitty subsystem, right?". Oh, no. Enter the Crazy OCC. Tailor made for the disruptive player in your group that loves to excuse their annoying, game destroying behaviour with "It's what my character would do!", this class gets super powers at the cost of rolling on the insanity table as they level up. The powers they get aren't as good as the Juicer, but since when did that matter to a dedicated fishmalk player? Also, you have to love how the fluff states this is caused by "tiny electromagnetic devices" implanted into the brain using Nanotechnology. I guess the artist didn't get that memo:


There's something different about you, Larry. Did you get your teeth done?

The Crazy doesn't just get to roll on the regular insanity tables, they get their very own specialised tables, just to make them even more "wacky". Multiple personalities, useless unless eating twinkies, this is some grade-A fishmalk right here. In fact, you could use this class as a kind of Rorscharch test for prospective players. If they read this class and say "Cool! When can I play one?" walk away and don't look back. You'll be saving yourself many sessions of teeth-grinding frustration.

Next I'm going to look at the big one: Balance, what balance?

I guess the artist didn't get that memo:

Ultimate Edition goes on record as saying that those big obvious metal things in the holes in their heads serve no pratical purpose at all; the crazies just like them.

Seriously.

Next I'm going to look at the big one: Balance, what balance?

About time.

Red_Rob wrote: Dodging in RIFTS takes away your next action.

This is true, however:
1. If you have Automatic Dodge, disregard that: you get to Dodge for free
2. Parrying, while not as good, doesn't cost actions (and robots can always parry)
3. Simultaneous Attack, bitches! If you get this ability, any time the enemy hits you, choose this. You can't choose another defensive option, but instead you automatically hit the enemy at the same time. They can't defend. And that's just part of their action - you then hit them on your action separately!

RIFTS characters can learn spells of any level.

Yes and no. Characters who learn spells "the normal way" (Line Walkers, Necromancers, Temporal Wizards etc.) can learn spells of any level by reading scrolls or learning from teachers. This is not reliable (you have to roll a percentage chance, and in the case of the scroll, the scroll is destroyed), it's expensive (prohibitively so in many cases), and depends on having someone there who can teach you/finding the scroll.

So to some extent it may depend on whether or not you like the taste of dick.

Other than that, with the exception of first level (and, IIRC, any level for the T-Wizard - they're pretty awesome in this regard), their "gain spells by gaining levels" thing is limited to their own level.

Mystics (and their ilk) are another thing altogether. They can't learn from others (like D&D's Sorcerer). I can't remember if they're restricted by level when they gain level-up spells.

So casters totally do like gaining levels more than basically anyone else. It's just that most casters don't get to declare "I have a 500 MDC robot" at level one.

Schwarzkopf wrote:

Next I'm going to look at the big one: Balance, what balance?

About time.

Booo, I was hoping it was going to be left for #1, and then #1 would wind up being something else, turning this thread into a great shaggy dog joke.